Matt Barr
“Good things are created when you’re not worrying about whether it’s any good and you’re not worrying about who’s going to like it. You’re just doing it to try and say something truthful in the most original way that you can. That is just a bit of a ‘rule of life’ thing for any creative endeavor.”
Matt Barr
Writer, Podcast Host, Marketing Agency Founder
Matt Barr is a podcast host, a journalist and runs an established marketing agency. His friend famously said he’d “keep himself busy in a cave,” and when you see his output you can fully understand why. It’s not just the quantity though, it’s most certainly the quality. His podcast Looking Sideways is a beautiful insight into action sports and other related endeavors. It’s here that he uncovers stories from the world’s best athletes, as well as the people behind the scenes in the industry, or even the 75-year-old woman who surfs in England and just loves it. Matt’s built the podcast up over four years into one of the most successful in the field, recently securing a deal with Patagonia for their own podcast Type2, which explores the intersection between the outdoors, action sports and activism. Matt and his creative partner Owen Towzer also just released their first book together, Looking Sideways Vol 1. California
On a personal note, Matt was my first boss as a writer, and I remember getting feedback on my first submission, which was a pages long email on the elements of my work I needed to improve on. That honesty and guidance has helped me at every stage of my own career, and I can’t thank him enough for his role in my development.
I was excited to talk to Matt as the podcast world has exploded over recent years. I wanted to get the lowdown on what it takes to consistently put out episodes, can you make money from podcasting and the most important question of all, does anyone like the sound of their own voice?
Jonathan : How long did you have the idea about starting the podcast before you actually got it going?
Matt : The reason I got into podcasts was that I wrote a film script about six or seven years ago, which was one of those random ideas. I spent three years learning how to do it. There’s a big market to try and teach people how to write scripts and so you end up listening to these podcasts, including one called Script Notes, which is a really brilliant podcast.
There was also this podcast from Brian Kopelman who’s the guy behind Billions. He’s got his interview podcast, then I started listening to Marc Maron, and then at one point I started looking for action sports podcasts. There were a couple at the time, which were just really poor, and I kept thinking ‘That’s kind of weird’. So I started out thinking it was a good idea for my friend Ed Leigh (TV presenter) or that I might pitch a group podcast idea to a magazine. Then one day I just thought I could just do this myself, like, I don’t need to go through a magazine, I could just do it all myself.
That was four years ago, the beginning of 2017, and I got really fired up. It was one of them, ‘I just need to do this now.’ I kind of committed straight away, buying the equipment I needed and booking loads of interviews, but I would say I had the idea properly for about three or four years. When I actually decided to do it myself, I went from idea to having it out in six weeks.
Oh wow, as quick as that! You wouldn’t know it as each person you speak to you seem so well prepared and knowledgeable of their backstory.
It’s funny as Jamie Briswick interviewed me about it for an American website and he was really complimentary about me as a journalist. I’ve been a journalist my whole working life and I never actually considered whether I was particularly good at it or thorough. So it’s obviously been really nice hearing things like that. I’ve always tried to base my work on storytelling, find- ing proper stories and treating them with respect. Treat it as something worthy of committing that much time and attention to.
I suppose there’s always one’s self-perception, versus how people perceive you. Because you probably only see the flaws, whilst other people see all the positive.
Well, I’m always really chuffed when people say things about my journalism as I’m glad people notice because I do take that seriously.
I think one of the things that I’ve always been most impressed by, is the fact that one week you can be discussing sustainability & climate issues, the next it’s gender equality, followed by issues of diversity in the outdoor space. It’s interesting you brought up the journalism piece because you’re originally a print journalist and people have been talking about the death of print media for a long time. This seems a good lesson in knowing when to pivot to where the market is going.
Well, in hindsight it definitely looks like a shrewd move, but it certainly wasn’t planned that way. I was worried in the beginning, but that’s why I put pressure on myself to get it done quickly. I’ve always tried to just do things for the sake of doing them, and learn lessons from other creative projects. Like music - I’ve made music my whole life and I’ve been in bands my whole life. In my 20s I was super serious about it, we made a record and all that stuff. When that was all finished, I kind of realized that I’ve been so focused on getting somewhere with it, that the music suffered because of it. You know that’s an important lesson in all creativity, and it’s not a particularly perceptive thing to say, but good things are created when you’re not worrying about whether it’s any good and you’re not worrying about who’s going to like it. You’re just doing it to try and say something truthful in the most original way that you can. That is just a bit of a ‘rule of life’ thing for any creative endeavour.
I’m a big believer in that’s how you paradoxically make things that are good, but that’s also how you can make things and not do your own head in because it’s such a head-game anyway. That’s where self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and all those creative clichés come from. They’re quite true though, as it’s hard enough to get yourself up for creating something anyway.
So, if you’re then putting the added pressure of some nebulous goal that just exists in your own head - like, ‘Are people going to like it?’ - you just added another layer. Firstly, you’re never going to match those expectations anyway, because no one ever does, unless you’re very fortunate. And secondly, you just do your own head in with it on an ego level. Asking yourself ‘Are people going to like it? Will they like my voice?’ It’s the road to madness.
Ha ha, that was going to be my next question, if you ever get used to your own voice.
The first couple of episodes I edited out every, ‘like... erm.’ It took hours, you know. Then I quickly realized no one gave a fuck, because when people listen to it no one says, ‘That was a great interview, but your vocal tics are annoying.’
So, I just essentially made myself commit. I spent some money on a digital recorder for about 400 quid, couple of mics for
a few hundred, then I was committed. I then booked three guests straight away and released all three at once. If I did one, everyone would be like, “oh Matts done a podcast,” whereas if I do three and promote the third one, people will realize it’s a thing. You know, it isn’t that straightforward to do a podcast. It’s not very intuitive. So, I just, I just thought, you know what, I’m just going to go all in. I just kept booking guests; you know.
At what point did you hire an editor?
That came quite late. That was an interesting decision because it costs money and besides the Patagonia Type2 series which brings in some money, and some cash from merch and donations, I have self-funded it all. And it’s a load of work too. Researching, presenting, editing, promo: it’s a lot.
The decision to pay for an editor was the old ‘How much is your time worth trade off?’ debate. Each episode was taking me two days. I enjoyed it, but when it came to somebody com- ing along saying, ‘I can take all this really boring bit of this off your plate’ and it meant I got a day of the week back, it just seemed like money well spent.
I was a big believer in just reinvesting in it as well because it came at the time when I had just signed that deal with Patagonia. You have to invest in yourself because people don’t just come along and give you money. I’ve got a friend who wanted to pitch a TV production company with the idea to do a surf/skate/snow trip around Britain to see if they could get a TV channel to pay for it. I told them you should just do it yourself, just buy a couple cameras, set up a YouTube channel, buy a camper van and go do it. They were like ‘Why would I do that’. Well that’s how you do these things, I told them. You have to earn the right to do these things.
For me it’s always just been reinvesting in it. Same for Owen Tozer, the photographer I work with. He also does it all from his own pocket. If you have faith in it, it should go somewhere, you know. It might sound lame, but I enjoy the purity of that as well because my main job is chasing marketing dollars all day long and I just didn’t want this to be about that.
So, you haven’t taken ads or anything but is there not a part of you that thinks how you could make this more sustainable so it could become a proper income stream?
I just think there’s a way of doing that, which is a really long game. A very long game. Like, a decade-long game. Organically building up an increasingly large audience and if you get a big enough audience to believe in what you do, you’ll earn money because you’ll be able to work with people on your own terms.
Who has been your best guest so far and why?
I mean, I recently interviewed Chas Smith which was really good. It was journalistically very satisfying. He’s this almost cartoon-like figure in the surf industry. I suspected that he was intelligent enough to be aware that it was an act, and no one had ever really approached things with him in that way. So I decided to approach it that way and it was great, he appreciated it as he’s a smart lad. I really enjoyed that it was just a really fun conversation. He was very nice too, so that definitely helps.
And it’s also interesting that one as well because that polarised opinion of your listeners, right?
Yeah. A lot of people really didn’t like him and were quite quick to tell me. I got a lot of messages saying ‘That guy is a dick I couldn’t listen to it’.
What advice would you have for anyone who wants to start a podcast?
Be realistic about how many you can do and how frequently you can put them out. Don’t beat yourself up if you don’t stick to that deadline. It is a load of work, it really is. It’s a lot more work than I think people realize. You want to enjoy it. Try and make sure that if you go into it with certain stories you want to tell, that you’re going to be able to sustain it because the novelty will wear off pretty quickly. Choose a subject that you are going to enjoy, that you can actually bring something to. That’s really important.
What would you tell your teenage self now as a podcast host and business owner?
I’d say two things. First is that no one cares how clever you think you are. I mean, that is a critical life lesson. People genuinely don’t really care about what people think of them and they really don’t care what you think. That can be a bit of a horrible lesson to learn, but it’s also a very liberating thing to learn because then you can just get on with your own life.
Secondly, the things that you enjoy now are the things that you’ll enjoy later in life. The things I enjoyed when I was teenager; music, skateboarding, football, snowboarding, I think I get more enjoyment of those things now than I did when I was 16. Just make sure you put yourself in a position to enjoy those things health wise.
Take a look at his book Looking Sideways Volume 1. California
